IFR?

[smitty]

Since I'm new to the bush flying bit I was was wondering if real bush pilots fly IFR? I usually set it up that way so I don't have to think too much about approaching the airport but if that's not the way the real guys do it then I don't want to use it. I like things to be accurate as possible.

[Joe Deering- KA4GBC]

HI Smitty;
I fly mostly by the seat of my pants, I use the map feature of FS9 to guide me. Once in a while I use FSNav but I try to stay away from that.
It's more fun trying to find what your looking for ;D ;D ;D
I have the terrain feature turned on in the map to see where I am, that helps a lot.
Anyway, that's the way I do it.
73's Joe

[Frank Seigler-KE5ETD]

I fly strictly VFR. I think that most real bush pilots fly VFR and by the seat of their pants. At least that is the way it was done in the couple books that I have read about bush pilots.

[Russ]

I fly VFR whenever I can. IFR generally takes longer (clearances, paperwork), and uses more fuel (IFR routing, extended center lines, and clear areas for descent).

However, sometimes if the weather won't let me fly VFR I go IFR to get the job done, and transition to VFR at the destination once I clear the clouds.

Lastly, if you fly above 18k *techincally* you should be IFR, but then .. flying above 18k isn't exactly bush flying! :-)

[ronj]

I don't mind flying in bad weather as long as I can see the ground and the mountains on either side of me.

Ron J

[Frank Seigler-KE5ETD]

You said it, Ron.

Anyway, IFR = I Follow Roads or I Follow Rivers.

[smitty]

Thanks for the replies guys. It's kinda what I thought so I'll not use it anymore unless the weather is real bad and if so I probably wouldn't be able to see where I wanted to land anyway....lol

[clmax]

This is a pretty good bush flying discussion thread:

auroraairserv.proboards24.com/index.cgi?board=bushflying&action=display&thread=1111851727

-Greg

[Wild Man]

G'day Mate

Ya see this is why real bush pilots fly helicopters ;D ;D ;D

When the weather get real bad we can pull over for a coffee, but in Alaska that can mean one heck of a loooonnnggg coffee break. ;D

So you if ya wanna get the job done and have frank pay ya you will have to learn the fine art of flying by feel.

If you feel a bump then your most likley performed a ummmm landing? ;D

If no bump ... keep flyin man ;D ;D ;D

Just keep one eye on the gauges and one eye out the side window. ;D ;D

Cheers The Wild Man

[cleetus]

I would think it would depend a lot on what you are trying to simulate.
VFR is usually going to be more fun (to me at least) in flight simulator and most bush pilots I have heard of prefer VFR. But I think you have to remember that when you get to the real world bottom line, Bush flying is a business.
If you can fly IFR and the other guy is day only VFR then you have an advantage.
I read comments by F E Potts on the subject. He used his super Cub and 185 for off airport work and used a Cessna 206 for bigger airstrip to airstrip work. It was clear that when given the opportunity he believed strongly in having IFR capability.
I recall him saying he hates mountain passes because he lost so many friends who were trying to slip through mountains VFR.
When he is flying an aircraft like the Super Cub then he might sneak through passes Etc. If he is in an aircraft that is capable, then going IFR is safer.
He lists what he had as far as avionics on his Cessna 206..........

"Instrumentation (IFR). The Cessna 206 is a great instrument platform, stable and sure, and when properly equipped it can handle many weather problems with ease. My 1985 Turbo 206, used for serious instrument flying, is currently outfitted as follows:

Dual Nav/Comms with VOR/LOC/GS reception (King KX 155)
DME (King KN 64)
Loran (King KLN 88)
Flight Control System (King KFC-150)
Altitude Preselect (King KAS 297B)
Transponder/Encoding Altimeter (King KT 76A/KEA 130A)
ADF (King KR 87)
HSI (King KCS 55A)
RMI (King KI 229)
WX-1000+ Weather Mapping System (BFG/Foster)
CFS 1000A Fuel Management Computer (SDI/Hoskins)
Graphic Engine Monitor (6 cylinder EGT, CHT; TIT)(Insight GEM)
Digital Density Altitude, Outside Air Temperature (F & C), Pressure Altitude, and Aircraft Voltage (Davtron)
AltAlert altitude alert and fuel-burn timer (Icarus)
Electronic Carbon Monoxide Detector (Paragon)
Bose headsets (2) (front seats)
David Clark headsets (2) (rear seats)
ISOCOM intercomm (David Clark)
As you can see, I believe in just the bare necessities...

* * *
I think in the real world bush flying is like any other business. You use the tool that will most efficiently get the job done so your profit margin is as big as possible.

If a guy has been planning a hunting trip or sight seeing for months or even years he doesn't want to hear a lot about weather minimums and such. Nor would a village waiting for the groceries.


I also think that there are different priorities. A guy that supports villages and takes local hunters out to hunt for their families food is going to be very different from the now bigger market which is flying tourist, supporting lodges, sports fishermen and hunters.

[smitty]

Thanks for the reply ;D That helps a lot and really helps me narrow down my question. If you are flying to somewhere new even on a crystal clear day would an IFR qualified pilot file an IFR flight plan? Now I'm thinking IFR in strictly the MSFS sense for altitude and bearing. Basically using ATC along with VOR's and GPS to get to the destination.

[cleetus]

I would thing VOR and GPS might be used as a reference Etc. but as Greg said in the other post , most guys are gonna not just know the area for navigation but fly low enough to know whats going on in that area.

One of my favorite parts of the Grizzly man documentary was when two bush pilots are flying along and see a man and bear running they quickly land and jump out with their guns to help out. I don't know if a lot of folks from other parts of the world would be that heads up.

[Russ]

You can fly by instruemnts and be VFR ..

IFR - Instrument Flight Rules (its a legal thing). You file a flight plan (using GPS way points, or VOR way points), your flight plan gets accepted, you get released to fly, ATC watches you on radar, makes sure you are on course, above terrain, and away from other airplanes. You and ATC cooperate to get the job done.

VFR - Visual Flight Rules (its a legal thing). You take off, go where you want, land where you want, and stay away from other airplanes, and terrain. Your job, to do it all alone. You can file a flight plan if you want, you can use VOR/GPS if you want but you must remain VMC.

VMC - Visual Meteorological Conditions .. means you can see 3+ miles in front of you AND you can see the ground (so you can navigate by landmarks). You can not fly VFR unless you are in VMC. You can fly IFR in VMC if you want, but mostly airlines do this, and its for insurance purposes.

IMC - Instrument Meteorological Conditions .. means the weather is not VMC ;D .. you must fly IFR (legally).

People often interchange the terms by convience and say Marginal VFR when they should really be saying Marginal VMC, or say its Marginal for VFR.

So as long as the clouds are high enough (1600' above ground level), and visibility is good enough (3+ miles) your legal to fly VFR.

Should you fly VFR? Well .. flying in 3 sm visibility, and 1600' clouds into rolling hilly terrain towards an airport you've never been to before is probably a bad idea.

Should you fly IFR? Well .. IFR can add quite a bit to your trip. Sitting on the ground waiting for clearance, and for airpalnes around you to be more then 5 miles away before your allowed to take off. Having to fly VERY extended patterns for straight in alignment into an airport (easier on the controller), and occasionally being put into a holding pattern for spacing, means its best not used in really good weather.

Of course MSFS IFR doesn't have you do any holds for depature, or landing. However, I fly alot of online ATC and they do that to you on occasion so .. I rarely file IFR.

Oh yeah one other thing .. you must be IFR if you are over FL180. So when I fly the King Air, or Eclipse 500 I'm IFR most of the time.

[Russ]

All that said ... would I fly into an unknown airport with very low clouds, and bad visibility ..

Sure I would .. cause its challenging, fun and just a game. But then IFR approaches are fun too. ;D

Its just that most of the airports we fly to don't have insturment landing systems. :-)